A true carbon tax, one that really goes right to the origin point, would be a nuclear bomb going off at the heart of solar and wind, as their production is so carbon intensive that their already prohibitive costs would simply explode. They don't actually care about food costs. They haven't for years, why would they start now?
I recently had lunch with a gentleman who I previously barely knew. The lunch came about because he approached me one Sunday morning (hint, hint) to discuss the potential for our building to convert to solar given both public and private subsidies. I am on the council of said organization, thus the reason he tracked me down. This led to our meeting as we munched on disappointing sandwich fare.
I’m 66 and he’s 74. I have absolutely no doubt his heart is in the right place. In his case the problem, in my opinion, stems from a faulty educational process which has indoctrinated him over many years. To wit, he is a local representative of something called Citizens’ Climate Lobby. After we dispersed, I decided to take a look. Here is their breathtaking vision regarding carbon pricing:
As I posted above, the Revenue Neutral CF&D free market approach is the way to do it. What is killing us is Carbon Trading scams like Cap n Trade and Net Zero. We are already being taxed to the limit, hidden taxes that are part of these useless scams. Only thing they are good at is wealth transfer to the Oligarch Kleptocrat class.
First of all, I am no expert on this topic. However, I do have certain red flags that get my attention when reading proposals such as the link you sent me. The last sentence in the third paragraph is a perfect example. Rosy projections over a 20 year period?....Win, win, win for everyone and the planet itself?Truthfully, it’s hard for me to take the rest of the paper seriously after that. It’s a classic case of failing to consider secondary and tertiary consequences.
Below is an example of thoughtful writing which makes sense to me. It’s actually from an investment firm which I highly respect. Just read the portion which begins on page 24 (ESG Movement section). It’s only a few pages. This is a transcript of a conference call from early 2022.:
First off, you wanted some info on CF&D and I gave you some. I didn't say anything about it me supporting everything they say, I haven't read any study that I support everything in it.
And I would say those projections are "rosy", which is far better than most projections which are "doom & gloom". And it is indeed win, win, win especially for you and all of us who are being ripped off by these mega-scams I mentioned above. Who do you think is paying for all that? Just because they don't call it a tax you think you aren't paying for it?!?
The key point of the Revenue Neutral CF&D is not your "rosy projections" nonsense, but that it is the fair and equable way to subsidize ALL low carbon energy, not by 100% corrupt politicians picking winners & losers according to who stuffs the most cash in their pockets. And transferring massive amounts of wealth from the poor & middle class to the uber-wealthy who are profiting from these scams.
As for you conference ESG crap. The guy doesn't seem to know what ESG is. Confusing it with green energy. He doesn't realize Tesla is the #1 EV maker and big on solar but isn't even on the ESG top 500 list, because Musk isn't a Woke Neoliberal supporter of censorship. And yapping about "energy cannot be created" that's almost as bad as the guy endlessly yapping about "FINITE FLAMMABLE fossil fuels. Those have nothing to do with it. Its about the economics.
Why wouldn’t all the non-EU trading partners refuse to pay the carbon tax and refuse scope 3 or any CO2 reporting? It’s an absolute violation of existing trade agreements to unilaterally impose new taxes on foreign goods. Of course that would prompt a trade war. Tariffs on expensive EU export goods could be hiked.
The more I read about the European concepts on climate, the more I am convinced the Xi Jinping and Vlad Putin are actually calling the shots, convincing a group of weak-minded individuals to destroy their nations and livelihoods for the greater good. Given that the climate agenda has all the hallmarks of religion, it is simply surprising that Xi and Putin are the co-popes. They better hope that a Republican isn't elected president in 2024 as I suspect he will not be very interested in playing ball with this idiocy
There is no doubt that Russia has funded a lot of the anti-nuclear and anti-fracking movement in Europe. That is well established. In America, our "allies" in the Middle East have done the same. But the real hidden hand behind the climate agenda is the Malthusian, Club-of-Rome Bankster Cult that runs most of the Western World.
The Roots Of Modern Eco-Terrorism: From MK Ultra And The Unabomber To Maurice Strong And Yuval Harari:
What a lot of garbage you come out with, why don’t you stop reading far right conspiracy theory newspapers like The Light and equivalents and try lifting the lid on your preppers bunker, and find out what’s happening in the real world.
You saying it is a load of garbage means zip because you don't know anything. A typical low IQ, Woke Neoliberal Doomer. Sorry son, but your knowledge of geopolitics is close to nil. And you still haven't learned the basics about energy, either. Sad.
You don’t change Smith’y, still the usual diatribe of labelling people, I’m remind of Socrates “When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the looser”. But you might like to check out BBC Sounds — Marianna in Conspiracyland, and Robert Bryce’s The Power Hungary podcast — William D. Magwood IV: Director-General of the OECD Nuclear Energy Agency — https://youtu.be/gilXaR-wFqY?si=155uvYDg5kUoejJl . Sorry to have to tell you Smith’y but your Nuclear Power renaissance is way off, if ever🤔
Says the guy who claims I'm a "far right conspiracy theorist" and a "prepper". All false. You give it but can't take it just like a typical Woke, Neoliberal. Accuse everyone else of doing exactly what you do. With zero self-awareness.
Amazing and oh so predictable your love of BBC's "disinformation expert". Let's see what is known about her:
BBC ‘disinformation’ correspondent busted spreading disinfo on her own bio:
The BBC has announced a new show, BBC Verify, hosted by the network’s “Disinformation Correspondent” Marianna Spring, that will be tasked with exposing disinformation, lies and other “fake news.” Not being targeted: all the lies, disinformation and fake news the BBC itself disseminates, whether about COVID, Ukraine, Julian Assange or any number of other topics. Jimmy and Americans’ Comedian Kurt Metzger discuss why a mainstream, government-funded media outlet like the BBC would be interested in silencing alternative news sources.
Except I didn’t, what I said was “why don’t you stop reading far right conspiracy theory newspapers like The Light and equivalents” that doesn’t mean you are, but of course it could be influencing your thinking. You appear to have an inferiority complex, “Woke” is a term used by those who generally have no idea what they’re talking about, and goes with labelling people they know nothing about. If there’s anyone spreads disinformation it’s you Smith’y. But then in your favour the person who never made a mistake hasn’t been born yet. And…
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community. but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It’s the invasion of the idiots." -- Umberto Eco🤔
Paying carbon taxes is really human being voluntarily committing suicide. Guilt hangs chains of servitude upon ignorant people., for it is interesting how the haloed elite can persuade a naïve public that doing productive things is deadly.
Those carbon-vilifying scam artists are always quick to point out the only holy way to generate carbon is in the act of penalizing those who profit from generating carbon. In other words, if it is not cost effective it is allowed and will be subsidized. If it's profitable , it will be taxed until it no longer is and then it too may be subsidized as it then meets the failure criteria our anointed leaders strive for. Nothing can be left to the free market in the foreseeable socialistic utopia that awaits us.
You already have debilitating carbon taxes. In the form of preferential subsidies, mandates and exemptions that are given to the political favorites Wind & Solar mostly. Money down the sewer. And carbon trading scams that are really just Wealth Transfer Grifts to make the Kleptocrats even richer. We would be much better off if we replaced all of that with a Revenue Neutral CF&D and a Free Market approach to Carbon reduction.
I don't expect agreement and I'm not going to argue. I don't consider that there is a need to control carbon or carbon dioxide. I see approval of any form of government control of the carbon cycle to be possible because so many people have stepped into the green circle, believing that the climate is changing due to human activity and must be addressed. I say we've been lulled into supporting and paying for very expensive nonsense.
Uh, an idealist. I'm OK with "screw the carbon", no control. As far as I'm concerned it's irrelevant anyway. We will need a 5X increase in primary energy supply to supply the Developing World with our level of energy consumption. There is no way we have enough fossil, renewables or both fossil + renewables to supply that economically. That means we need to switch to a largely nuclear World energy supply. Happy coincidence, nuclear is the lowest in ALL emissions, including carbon of ANY energy source.
Other than that, I'm a realist, and the reality is virtually every country on Earth has signed on to carbon restriction. So if we have to do it, if they want it done, we can at least throw it back in their face, that it needs to be done rationally and cost effectively. Which isn't being done, not even close.
In the early 1900s in the US, it was alcohol that was the big problem.
Drunken husbands were coming home, you see, and beating their wives. We simply can't have that, you see.
The solution? Don't ban alcohol itself but the manufacture, sale, and transportation of intoxicating liquors. Seems simple enough, right? Wrong.
It was an unutterable disaster. It brought about the rise of crime lords like Al Capone.
Remember that the French laughed at Americans for US Prohibition.
If a government can't successfully deal with something as simple as alcohol abuse, then how can they possibly successfully deal with what is the foundation of modern society, i.e., hydrocarbon fuels?
The problem with government solutions is this: who holds government accountable if it f**ks up? Government has all the power to stop accountability. Consider, for example, what Justin Trudeau did to those who participated in Canada's Freedom Convoy. He jailed pastors! They cause a disaster for society but then shrug their shoulders & move on. Forward!
British Columbia (Canada) has had a carbon tax on domestic natural gas since 2008. (The then premier of the province went for a visit to California and met with then governor Arnold, got panicky about "Climate Change", came back to BC, and instituted a "Climate Action Plan".) The upshot? That carbon tax is now 100% on domestic NG usage (compared to the cost of the NG).
The province then gives those tax monies to more wealthy people to bribe them, sorry, "incentivize" them into buying an expensive car (e.g., an EV).
From the poor to the rich via the power of government. The corruption runs deeply.
It's not just logic that's the problem. It's corruption - a massive pyramid scheme - at the highest levels of society. A certain Bohemian corporal would understand.
And no one can stop it.
Moral of the story? Get government OUT of the business of managing society.
What most people don't recognize is they are already being taxed to death on "carbon". Except it ain't really carbon, its on a bunch of ineffective money-grubbing scams that pretend to be low carbon. If you replace all those scams i.e. Wind & Solar, agrofuels, Utility battery storage, CCS, ITER, biomass burning, hydrogen, Deep Geothermal, Carbon trading, Net zero, with a CF&D and a free market approach, then the real effective methods of carbon reduction will win out over the scams. That is Nuclear, Hydro, Geothermal, Extreme Efficiency CCGT and ultra-supercritical Coal.
The Revenue Neutral Carbon Fee & Dividend is a free market approach to emissions reduction. The idea of CF&D is increased costs of burning higher carbon fuels will incentivize a switch to lower carbon fuels, i.e. gas instead of coal, methanol instead of diesel/gasoline, nuclear & hydro instead of gas. This system only works if government doesn't interfere with the market as it is now doing to a diabolical extent by endless preferential subsidies, exemptions and mandates for the ineffective methods. And this has terribly distorted electricity markets. A total failure.
The CF&D rewards the energy frugal poor & middle class while penalizing the energy hog wealthy. Unlike the Carbon Trading, Carbon Credits, Net Zero scams being pushed by the Ruling Class of uber-wealthy.
The revenue neutral CF&D is the exact opposite of the carbon trading scams, like Cap & Trade or Net Zero, that the ruling class are foisting upon us. They punish the poor & middle class while make the rich even wealthier, while being entirely ineffective against emissions. Cap & Trade has been a dismal failure, so they pretend they didn't do that, and now push a new version called Net Zero.
A true carbon tax, one that really goes right to the origin point, would be a nuclear bomb going off at the heart of solar and wind, as their production is so carbon intensive that their already prohibitive costs would simply explode. They don't actually care about food costs. They haven't for years, why would they start now?
Brilliant.
As the wise and wonderful Lady Margaret Thatcher opined in 1991:
"The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money."
As it says on the guide map, "You Are Here".....
I recently had lunch with a gentleman who I previously barely knew. The lunch came about because he approached me one Sunday morning (hint, hint) to discuss the potential for our building to convert to solar given both public and private subsidies. I am on the council of said organization, thus the reason he tracked me down. This led to our meeting as we munched on disappointing sandwich fare.
I’m 66 and he’s 74. I have absolutely no doubt his heart is in the right place. In his case the problem, in my opinion, stems from a faulty educational process which has indoctrinated him over many years. To wit, he is a local representative of something called Citizens’ Climate Lobby. After we dispersed, I decided to take a look. Here is their breathtaking vision regarding carbon pricing:
https://citizensclimatelobby.org/price-on-carbon/
You can’t make this stuff up. It’s like a cartoon. The “money in your pocket” section is particularly egregious. Enjoy.....
As I posted above, the Revenue Neutral CF&D free market approach is the way to do it. What is killing us is Carbon Trading scams like Cap n Trade and Net Zero. We are already being taxed to the limit, hidden taxes that are part of these useless scams. Only thing they are good at is wealth transfer to the Oligarch Kleptocrat class.
Thanks....can you direct me to a more detailed reference regarding the Revenue Neutral CF&D free market approach?
https://csas.earth.columbia.edu/sites/default/files/content/Fee-and-Dividend-Miller-Hansen-20191110-1.pdf
Thanks much. I will get to work.
First of all, I am no expert on this topic. However, I do have certain red flags that get my attention when reading proposals such as the link you sent me. The last sentence in the third paragraph is a perfect example. Rosy projections over a 20 year period?....Win, win, win for everyone and the planet itself?Truthfully, it’s hard for me to take the rest of the paper seriously after that. It’s a classic case of failing to consider secondary and tertiary consequences.
Below is an example of thoughtful writing which makes sense to me. It’s actually from an investment firm which I highly respect. Just read the portion which begins on page 24 (ESG Movement section). It’s only a few pages. This is a transcript of a conference call from early 2022.:
https://horizonkinetics.com/app/uploads/Q1-2022-Roundtable-Discussion-for-Website_FINAL.pdf
Just my two cents. I’ve been wrong before. Maybe I’m wrong here.
First off, you wanted some info on CF&D and I gave you some. I didn't say anything about it me supporting everything they say, I haven't read any study that I support everything in it.
And I would say those projections are "rosy", which is far better than most projections which are "doom & gloom". And it is indeed win, win, win especially for you and all of us who are being ripped off by these mega-scams I mentioned above. Who do you think is paying for all that? Just because they don't call it a tax you think you aren't paying for it?!?
The key point of the Revenue Neutral CF&D is not your "rosy projections" nonsense, but that it is the fair and equable way to subsidize ALL low carbon energy, not by 100% corrupt politicians picking winners & losers according to who stuffs the most cash in their pockets. And transferring massive amounts of wealth from the poor & middle class to the uber-wealthy who are profiting from these scams.
As for you conference ESG crap. The guy doesn't seem to know what ESG is. Confusing it with green energy. He doesn't realize Tesla is the #1 EV maker and big on solar but isn't even on the ESG top 500 list, because Musk isn't a Woke Neoliberal supporter of censorship. And yapping about "energy cannot be created" that's almost as bad as the guy endlessly yapping about "FINITE FLAMMABLE fossil fuels. Those have nothing to do with it. Its about the economics.
This is quite sad, really, that they probably believe what they've written.
That is a big word salad to describe a death spiral.
Why wouldn’t all the non-EU trading partners refuse to pay the carbon tax and refuse scope 3 or any CO2 reporting? It’s an absolute violation of existing trade agreements to unilaterally impose new taxes on foreign goods. Of course that would prompt a trade war. Tariffs on expensive EU export goods could be hiked.
The more I read about the European concepts on climate, the more I am convinced the Xi Jinping and Vlad Putin are actually calling the shots, convincing a group of weak-minded individuals to destroy their nations and livelihoods for the greater good. Given that the climate agenda has all the hallmarks of religion, it is simply surprising that Xi and Putin are the co-popes. They better hope that a Republican isn't elected president in 2024 as I suspect he will not be very interested in playing ball with this idiocy
There is no doubt that Russia has funded a lot of the anti-nuclear and anti-fracking movement in Europe. That is well established. In America, our "allies" in the Middle East have done the same. But the real hidden hand behind the climate agenda is the Malthusian, Club-of-Rome Bankster Cult that runs most of the Western World.
The Roots Of Modern Eco-Terrorism: From MK Ultra And The Unabomber To Maurice Strong And Yuval Harari:
https://matthewehret.substack.com/p/the-roots-of-modern-eco-terrorism
What a lot of garbage you come out with, why don’t you stop reading far right conspiracy theory newspapers like The Light and equivalents and try lifting the lid on your preppers bunker, and find out what’s happening in the real world.
Yuval Noah Harari a cult figure. really! https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2020/01/yuval-hararis-warning-davos-speech-future-predications/ 🤔
You saying it is a load of garbage means zip because you don't know anything. A typical low IQ, Woke Neoliberal Doomer. Sorry son, but your knowledge of geopolitics is close to nil. And you still haven't learned the basics about energy, either. Sad.
You don’t change Smith’y, still the usual diatribe of labelling people, I’m remind of Socrates “When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the looser”. But you might like to check out BBC Sounds — Marianna in Conspiracyland, and Robert Bryce’s The Power Hungary podcast — William D. Magwood IV: Director-General of the OECD Nuclear Energy Agency — https://youtu.be/gilXaR-wFqY?si=155uvYDg5kUoejJl . Sorry to have to tell you Smith’y but your Nuclear Power renaissance is way off, if ever🤔
Says the guy who claims I'm a "far right conspiracy theorist" and a "prepper". All false. You give it but can't take it just like a typical Woke, Neoliberal. Accuse everyone else of doing exactly what you do. With zero self-awareness.
Amazing and oh so predictable your love of BBC's "disinformation expert". Let's see what is known about her:
BBC ‘disinformation’ correspondent busted spreading disinfo on her own bio:
https://thegrayzone.com/2023/09/09/bbc-disinformation-disinfo-bio/
Troubling questions surround BBC ‘disinformation correspondent’ Marianna Spring:
https://thegrayzone.com/2023/06/01/bbc-specialist-disinformation/
BBC’s New Disinformation Expert Is A Joke! Zero Qualifications:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A200NhgUWTg
The BBC has announced a new show, BBC Verify, hosted by the network’s “Disinformation Correspondent” Marianna Spring, that will be tasked with exposing disinformation, lies and other “fake news.” Not being targeted: all the lies, disinformation and fake news the BBC itself disseminates, whether about COVID, Ukraine, Julian Assange or any number of other topics. Jimmy and Americans’ Comedian Kurt Metzger discuss why a mainstream, government-funded media outlet like the BBC would be interested in silencing alternative news sources.
Except I didn’t, what I said was “why don’t you stop reading far right conspiracy theory newspapers like The Light and equivalents” that doesn’t mean you are, but of course it could be influencing your thinking. You appear to have an inferiority complex, “Woke” is a term used by those who generally have no idea what they’re talking about, and goes with labelling people they know nothing about. If there’s anyone spreads disinformation it’s you Smith’y. But then in your favour the person who never made a mistake hasn’t been born yet. And…
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community. but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It’s the invasion of the idiots." -- Umberto Eco🤔
Paying carbon taxes is really human being voluntarily committing suicide. Guilt hangs chains of servitude upon ignorant people., for it is interesting how the haloed elite can persuade a naïve public that doing productive things is deadly.
Those carbon-vilifying scam artists are always quick to point out the only holy way to generate carbon is in the act of penalizing those who profit from generating carbon. In other words, if it is not cost effective it is allowed and will be subsidized. If it's profitable , it will be taxed until it no longer is and then it too may be subsidized as it then meets the failure criteria our anointed leaders strive for. Nothing can be left to the free market in the foreseeable socialistic utopia that awaits us.
Pitchforks and resentment may save us.
You already have debilitating carbon taxes. In the form of preferential subsidies, mandates and exemptions that are given to the political favorites Wind & Solar mostly. Money down the sewer. And carbon trading scams that are really just Wealth Transfer Grifts to make the Kleptocrats even richer. We would be much better off if we replaced all of that with a Revenue Neutral CF&D and a Free Market approach to Carbon reduction.
I don't expect agreement and I'm not going to argue. I don't consider that there is a need to control carbon or carbon dioxide. I see approval of any form of government control of the carbon cycle to be possible because so many people have stepped into the green circle, believing that the climate is changing due to human activity and must be addressed. I say we've been lulled into supporting and paying for very expensive nonsense.
Uh, an idealist. I'm OK with "screw the carbon", no control. As far as I'm concerned it's irrelevant anyway. We will need a 5X increase in primary energy supply to supply the Developing World with our level of energy consumption. There is no way we have enough fossil, renewables or both fossil + renewables to supply that economically. That means we need to switch to a largely nuclear World energy supply. Happy coincidence, nuclear is the lowest in ALL emissions, including carbon of ANY energy source.
Other than that, I'm a realist, and the reality is virtually every country on Earth has signed on to carbon restriction. So if we have to do it, if they want it done, we can at least throw it back in their face, that it needs to be done rationally and cost effectively. Which isn't being done, not even close.
In the early 1900s in the US, it was alcohol that was the big problem.
Drunken husbands were coming home, you see, and beating their wives. We simply can't have that, you see.
The solution? Don't ban alcohol itself but the manufacture, sale, and transportation of intoxicating liquors. Seems simple enough, right? Wrong.
It was an unutterable disaster. It brought about the rise of crime lords like Al Capone.
Remember that the French laughed at Americans for US Prohibition.
If a government can't successfully deal with something as simple as alcohol abuse, then how can they possibly successfully deal with what is the foundation of modern society, i.e., hydrocarbon fuels?
The problem with government solutions is this: who holds government accountable if it f**ks up? Government has all the power to stop accountability. Consider, for example, what Justin Trudeau did to those who participated in Canada's Freedom Convoy. He jailed pastors! They cause a disaster for society but then shrug their shoulders & move on. Forward!
British Columbia (Canada) has had a carbon tax on domestic natural gas since 2008. (The then premier of the province went for a visit to California and met with then governor Arnold, got panicky about "Climate Change", came back to BC, and instituted a "Climate Action Plan".) The upshot? That carbon tax is now 100% on domestic NG usage (compared to the cost of the NG).
The province then gives those tax monies to more wealthy people to bribe them, sorry, "incentivize" them into buying an expensive car (e.g., an EV).
From the poor to the rich via the power of government. The corruption runs deeply.
It's not just logic that's the problem. It's corruption - a massive pyramid scheme - at the highest levels of society. A certain Bohemian corporal would understand.
And no one can stop it.
Moral of the story? Get government OUT of the business of managing society.
What most people don't recognize is they are already being taxed to death on "carbon". Except it ain't really carbon, its on a bunch of ineffective money-grubbing scams that pretend to be low carbon. If you replace all those scams i.e. Wind & Solar, agrofuels, Utility battery storage, CCS, ITER, biomass burning, hydrogen, Deep Geothermal, Carbon trading, Net zero, with a CF&D and a free market approach, then the real effective methods of carbon reduction will win out over the scams. That is Nuclear, Hydro, Geothermal, Extreme Efficiency CCGT and ultra-supercritical Coal.
The Revenue Neutral Carbon Fee & Dividend is a free market approach to emissions reduction. The idea of CF&D is increased costs of burning higher carbon fuels will incentivize a switch to lower carbon fuels, i.e. gas instead of coal, methanol instead of diesel/gasoline, nuclear & hydro instead of gas. This system only works if government doesn't interfere with the market as it is now doing to a diabolical extent by endless preferential subsidies, exemptions and mandates for the ineffective methods. And this has terribly distorted electricity markets. A total failure.
The CF&D rewards the energy frugal poor & middle class while penalizing the energy hog wealthy. Unlike the Carbon Trading, Carbon Credits, Net Zero scams being pushed by the Ruling Class of uber-wealthy.
The revenue neutral CF&D is the exact opposite of the carbon trading scams, like Cap & Trade or Net Zero, that the ruling class are foisting upon us. They punish the poor & middle class while make the rich even wealthier, while being entirely ineffective against emissions. Cap & Trade has been a dismal failure, so they pretend they didn't do that, and now push a new version called Net Zero.
Fantastic. Brilliant. Thanks.
Implementing a carbon tax, making the poor poorer.
The poor will then rely upon the government for support, giving the govt a new obedient vassal class, dependent upon the govt for their survival.
"so everyone selling to the EU will now have to track and report emissions and beginning in 2026 they will also have to pay for these"
These presume countries like China and Russia will be truthful when reporting their emissions.
They presume someone will bother reporting at all.
The only ‘logic’ of the greenies is illogic.
Fun read. You have such a way with swords. I mean words.
Relax, I'm sure this is all going to work out fine. Exactly as they intend it to even!